The Boy Scouts of America have a Mormon problem. Before you get all feisty, I should make it clear that in general I’m a big fan of Mormons. They make for generally great people, are pretty fun to hang with out, and are usually pretty smart. However, the BSA has a big Mormo
Temple Square
n problem and it is a root for the organizations biggest threat of extinction. The problem is two fold.
Scouting “Mormon” Style: All Mormon young men are registered with the Boy Scouts. This is great because it brings more boys into the program right? Well, I said registered. You see the LDS church uses the Ward system and each Ward has a Troop, Team and Venture Crew. Boys shift based on age. The big problem is that only a few boys actually participate so while the number look good, the Units are in fact woefully underpopulated. The BSA doesn’t say anything because the LDS Church pays for each registered boy not each active boy. The Mormon Scouts are robbed of the real boy/boy leadership skills and exposure to different points of view. In addition, the LDS Church bastardizes the Scouting program for its own purposes. Boys who should be learning to camp aren’t because they don’t have the Priesthood, and Adult Leadership is chosen by the Bishop rather than based on who wants and is most capable to lead. The adults get a call “You have been called to be a Scoutmaster” and often the response is “A Scoutwhat?” Assignments only last a few years and then new blood is plucked out of nowhere to fill the hole. (The above is not going on in every LDS Ward, but more often than not). To be honest, all the above isn’t too bad. A chartering partner should have some control over how their program is run (although it should be within the traditional parameters set out by the BSA). My big problem is when the LDS version of the program bleeds into other units. Example? Camporees ending on Saturday afternoon, Summer Camp cut short, etc. I understand if the Unit wants to leave early but when a member of the LDS Church is put in charge of District or Council events, the events should maintain their traditional program. I’ve heard that the further away a Troop is from Salt Lake City the less severe this problem is, however, the second prong is a nationwide problem.
Scouting Held Hostage: The more severe problem is the Mormon influence on National BSA policies. Particularly on the issue of permitting gays to be members. Back during the whole BSA v. Dale (extended post on this tomorrow) excursion, the LDS Church made it very clear that if the BSA was forced to allowed homosexual members, it was going to leave. So, the BSA fought tooth and nail to win the lawsuit. The incentive of course was the inflated membership and money flowing in from the LDS Church. Many councils, especially those in the West rely heavily on the member income from the Mormon Church. If the Church bolted, membership would immediately dramatically drop, budgets would be cut, etc. If the BSA is to move into the 21st Century, it might have to without the LDS Church. One of the reasons the Councils, including my old Council the Nevada Are Council, allow the LDS to shift the program to their needs is the cash that comes from membership (membership that is grossly inflated). the LDS are allowed to play by their own rules while all the Units and Religious Organizations are forced to follow the LDS moral policies.
I’m not saying the problem with Scouting is the Mormons are involved (in fact I would like it very much if the BSA could keep the Mormon Church involved), I’m saying one of the greatest difficulties for the BSA moving forward is how more socially evolved the program can be than one of its biggest participants. If the BSA is anchored to match the Mormon social culture of today, I fear the BSA won’t make it for the next hundred years.
Very well stated. I have had the same opinion for many years. I am glad someone with your background has said something about it.
I just had the exact same conversation/explanation of the BSA’s “Mormon problem” with my Past Lodge Chief, and student employee of mine here at OSU. I made these same arguments today, with the addition of the “13 year-old Eagle Scout” concern as well…
Well said sir, well said.
Thanks for posting this Ross. I think you’ve respectfully summed up the LDS Scouting conundrum well.
I remember the first time you told me about this issue Sophomore or Junior year of high school, specifically how a good number of wards choose not to do OA because of the extra time involved. I’d never thought about it before!! Well, I loved scouts, and I think we did ok. The Spillers joined our troop even though they weren’t LDS because they knew it was a good one, and I’d bet we got 9 or 10 Eagles in a few years time, with only 1 or 2 boys I can think of slipping through the cracks. So not perfect, but we love it too.
I have always been proud to be friends with the man who became the king of the scouts from Wendover to California, though. You’ve always done great work! Hope life’s treating you well in everything else you’re up to too.
(Boys in the LDS church typically receive the Aaronic Priesthood and join BSA at 12 but do “Blazer scouts” from 11-12 and Cub scouts from whenever-11. Is this not a typical timeline?)
Dave –
Good to hear from you. Your troop was definitely one of the good ones, there were plenty that weren’t. There is no such thing as “Blazer Scouts” in the BSA program. It is an LDS fabrication to match the time line with the Aaronic Priesthood.
Hope all is well. It has been awhile since we conquered the halls of McQ, I guess we have a reunion coming up huh?
Sad but true. I remember when I was 12 and my dad went up and volunteered to be scout leader when we first moved to winemucca. They said no because the calling was filled, even if it was by someone who didn’t like scouts. I mean we’re talking about my dad, silver beaver award recipient (though not at the time) was told to buzz off and that the scouting program didn’t need him that’s why my family latched on to the OA, they actually let us participate (well, if we discount certain advisers who seemed to hate the fact our last name was too close to their chapter name).
I also remember when I was Lodge chief and went with Dick Wills to that regional training meeting in Portland. They were talking about what it took for quality lodge and that they needed to visit every unit personally in their lodge and there was no excuse. The lodge leader from Salt Lake raised his hand and told them that was impossible because he had over 3,000 units in his lodge that he’d have to visit. I think that’s the real problem. Yes it’s how many active boys vs registered boys. But the real problem is how many units they register. I remember all the times Lynn Olsen would be freaking out because the wards were re-organizing and he was going to loose 3 or 4 units even though he wasn’t loosing numbers. The church needs to register each ward as a single units, maybe with s really active group getting a venture crew. It would be painful for the professional scouters, but you know how I feel about them.
What I find really dangerous and disturbing within the church is the general anti-scout attitude that’s been creeping up. Granted this is only from looking at about a half dozen wards. But less time is spent on scouts, for no good reason. They instituted the revised duty to god program, which in reality is an international program to give structure to youth programs in countries without the boy scouts, and far too many people are using that as an excuse. The other huge problem in the LDS church is the devaluation of the eagle scout award. There are so many worthless little youth awards that have popped up in the church youth program and they all get presented in church in front of the congregation. Inevitably the bishop will utter the words “its the equivalent of the Eagle Scout Award.” As many of my former Ward and Stake leadership knows, I hate this. I can’t put those stupid awards on a resume, it doesn’t get me extra money and a promotion if I join the military. Being an Eagle means something damn it! This is mostly used to make the girls program feel good about the little pin they give out when someone makes a bunch of goals on a calendar and then claims they kept them.
While there really isn’t blazer scouts, good scout leaders will actually involve boys who’ve earned their webelos at the blazer age, I’m trying to remember the rules for the BSA I think its having your webelos or entering the 6th grade, not sure. I was attending scout meetings with a real troop, cause that was a really good troop (not winemucca’s). But you’re right, any ward trying to do “blazer scouts” just doesn’t understand.
Sorry for the long rant Ross.
Ross,
As I Latter-day Saint and life-long Scouter, I share many of your frustrations with how some wards and stakes treat the Scouting program. However, I cannot endorse your divisive solution. Scouting is supposed to be a common ground where we respect – not merely tolerate – our differences, especially religious ones.
Let me ask you this…would it be okay to advocate that Jewish Scouts should leave the BSA because they may practice Scouting in a different way than non-Jewish troops? What about Muslim Scouts? Would it be okay to tell the world that Scouting is okay for everyone but Muslims?
I wish that you would take to some to reflect upon your opinions and the messages they send. I’m sorry that Mormon-bashing is so in vogue these days and that you would bring that popular trend to a place that deserves our respect – the Boy Scouts of America.
Ryan Mecham
Mike -
I always have a hard time telling people about how the LDS way of doing Scouting is wrong when I have the Moss family as an example of how to do it right. It’s great to have your perspective included with this post. I hope all is well.
Ryan -
I don’t think the LDS Church should leave Scouting. I simply think they should follow the program as it was meant to be. I’m perfectly fine with some variations based on the charter organization but to create a whole new level of scouting (“Blazers”) and move youth into programs based on age rather than interest and ability just seems wrong.
In addition, I don’t think the LDS Church should try to impose their beliefs over Muslim or Jewish or any other types of Scouts by threatening to leave the organization if the BSA opens it’s program to everyone. My goal with this post was not to bash Mormons but rather to highlight the danger to Scouting’s future that the influence of the Mormon Church creates.
Ross,
The LDS Church is following Scouting “as it was meant to be” in the sense that Scouting and the LDS Church has a partnership. Scouting is based upon a chartered partner concept (a concept, by the way, that the LDS Church pioneered as BSA’s first chartered partner in 1913). A partnership is a two way street. As such, LDS influence on the national organization is not only appropriate, it’s exactly how the whole system was designed. The LDS Church has as much right to influence the national organization as does every other chartered partner, of whom there are 30 other national Religious partners, 8 national Educational partners and 50 national Civic partners. Scouting serves a purpose for every chartered partner, otherwise why would an organization partner with the BSA?
Again, I’m very sorry that you’ve chosen to walk the path of divisiveness. Wouldn’t it be more productive to find ways to help individual councils and units to solve their problems rather than advocate the wholesale removal of a religious movement from the BSA?
Ryan Mecham
Ryan
Your comment is interesting, but misses the point Ross is trying to make. I think Mormon’s should be excluded, as should Jews and Muslims and any person or group for that matter, when, as a group or in an individual capacity, they propose and support ideas that are antithetical to the groups core ideology.
Also, please don’t hide behind the guise of “Mormon bashing”. I find that offensive as a Mormon. When someone’s speech is motivated by biases lets call that out and focus on their motivations to try and stamp the hatred out. However, when someone is merely pointing out logical inconsistencies in a hope to spur dialogue to reach a mutually beneficial solution we should encourage that speech, not try to paint them into a corner using terms that are loaded with images of historical repression and discrimination. Using hyperbolic terms minimizes the actual historical impact of what has been done by drawing lines of similarity through acts that are not even close to being on the same level. A state governor signing a death warrant or an entire religious sect being forced to move because of sanctioned violence by the masses is not even in the same league as someone questioning how and why certain realities are playing out. Without a forum to talk about these inconsistencies how are we, as a democratic society, supposed to make any positive changes in the world we live in?
Thank you Ross for bringing a huge issue to the forefront, particularly at a time when the BSA is in the limelight for their anniversary.
My suggestion to help local districts and councils to join the 21st; the Mormon Church is currently the biggest hurdle to doing so (via the threat to leave over allowing homosexuals to join the organization).
Ah, Ross, now we get to the heart of the issue and your inconsistency. Do you honestly believe that it’s Mormon Church alone that stands in the way of Scouting changing its membership policies? Don’t you think that the Catholics and others might have something to say about that, too? Why aren’t you getting angry at them?
In fact, you should be consistent and advocate the removal of all organizations from Scouting that defended marriage in California’s Prop 8. Why just throw out the Mormons when you can get rid of the Catholics and the other advocates of traditional marriage at the same time? By so doing, you could get rid of the 402,127 youth that the LDS Church registered plus another 291,443 that the Catholics registered in 2008. Wow, just think of it…getting rid of three-quarters of a million Scouts! I hope that you start a massive recruiting program to replace all those boys. Good luck, Ross.
Ryan,
I’m not advocating the removal of any organization from Scouting. At no time have I said the Mormons or anyone else should leave the program. I’m simply saying it is a problem for the BSA to have one (or numerous) partner(s) who may leave in the event the BSA moves toward the 21st century. I would love the Mormons and anyone else who is currently involved to stay associated with the BSA.
Ross and Ryan,
One point I did not see mentioned here is that when some leaders, typically LDS change an event to not take place on Sunday because of their own beliefs, they are changing an event for all boys attending, not all of which share their beliefs. Devout Jewish scouts observe the Sabbath (or “Shabbat”) on Saturdays (actually sundown Friday to the first stars on Saturday), and often refrain from working and traveling during that period. At many events I have seen Shabbat services on Friday nights, but rarely have I seen an event changed, even with predominantly Jewish units in attendance to not occur on Saturday. I think leaders of an event that includes units from all denominations should consider the needs of all units, and try to create an event that accommodates all units in a fair manner, something that can be discussed before the event. In my experiences, this has never happened, and usually there was a “my way or the highway” attitude from some leaders. I don’t think it happens all the time, but we should not hide this issue as if it doesn’t occur.
I’m glad to hear this discussion out in the open for once, because no matter how much we may agree or disagree on an issue it is good to take it out from behind closed doors and let us discuss it. Sadly I think this has been the butt of many jokes and discussions for years, and it’s something that shouldn’t be hidden, but rather both the LDS church and the BSA should work together to find a way to make the program fulfill the needs of its youth the best way it possibly can. In many cases this includes having trained leaders with experience with the program too, but adding additional leadership without experience is worthwhile to expose adults to the program as well. It should be open, and leaders with experience should be discussing solutions, not ignoring the fact that there are some serious problems we’ve seen all around the country.
I really don’t think anyone here is “Mormon bashing,” and I don’t think any of us would advocate the removal of any group of people from the Boy Scouts. Advocating an open dialog between these groups is important, because the LDS church, the Catholic Church, every scout, etc. are stakeholders in the development of this program. Some of my lifelong friends are Mormons, some of whom have had good experiences with the Scouting program and others who have not. From their experience, some Stakes do an excellent job administering their units, and some fall short. I think what we should be focused on is ways to improve the program in places where it doesn’t work as intended. When it comes to the gay marriage issue, I suppose it is the place of all shareholders in the organization to equally voice their opinions, but sadly I feel as if all this has been done behind closed doors and we don’t know the true reasons for the decisions made. No matter what side of the issue you stand on, I think this last fact should worry us all.
That’s my two cents. And thanks Ross for bringing the issue up, everyone is so afraid to it’s about time people discuss it.
Michael Gollner
I find it interesting that BSA “moving into the 21st century” is defined by one very narrow criteria: gays openly joining BSA. To me such narrow definitions are a sure sign that something is amiss with the logic/rationale and that likely something else is at work.
Ken V
Ken,
The Scouts have to do a lot more as we move into the 21st century. I wouldn’t be surprised if you see a reduction in the number of centralized professional scouts, we have to a harness a competitive message to compete with ever more intense competition from sporting and academic activities, and a whole host of other issues. I plan on posting some thoughts on how to move forward on Thursday.
Very interesting article. At an LDS Scouter for over 50 years, I have seen a lot of what your talking about BUT from the other side of the coin.
We have a lot of problems in our units, but so do the other non-LDS units. We need not throw out the baby with the bath water.
ALL units can nake the program work out with some compromises on both sides.
Years ago, at Camporees they would give out the ribbons on Sunday…This made the LDS units “realllly” stand out. So to remidy the sutuation, the ribbons started to be handed out on Saturday evening…. other than that, there were no other changed to any programs.
We can all get along…sometimes it can be a struggle, but I know we’re all working fot the same results.
Cliff
PS. The Blazer program hasn’t been around for over 15 years. We now use the 11 year old program just like all the other non-LDS units do. As a matter of fact, the 11 year old program started from the old Blazer program (adopted into the Scouting program). The name (Blazer) just keeps hanging on.
I don’t see a problem at all with gays or girls. Scouts Canada is fully coed and has no sexual orientation restriction of any kind. And yet the LDS church sponsors scouting as it does in the US. As far as the girls issue goes Scouts Canada simply has a policy that if national sponsoring bodies want to stay boys only they have that option. The BSA could do the same thing. As far as sexual orientation goes I’ve never heard of any problems ever with regards to this. I don’t think there is a problem.
The problem of poorly run scout groups is as prevalent in Canadian wards as it is in the US. That in itself should probably scare gays away – why would they want to join a group that is generally mediocre at best.
I must say I really don’t understand how you BSA types can’t see the answer.
I like the way the LDS church is running their units. My boys are progressing and moving forward learning life skills in service, leadership and spirituality. I appreciate that none of the boys are left out because they had soccer or a family event during part of the year, they are on our charter so when they can come to Scouting events they are covered by the insurance plus are welcomed right in. No extra paperwork and everyone knows their name. Some ward units have more talent then others but either way I see the program changing lives despite not running as perfect as your troop did.
As for the “homosexual” issue. Scouts are not hypocrites. There is no place for it in this organization in the 21st century or now. The Scout Oath and Law would have to be changed or watered down. Is that what you want?
Becky S.
I’m sorry, Ross, but your logic is inconsistent. Your statements, “I would love the Mormons and anyone else who is currently involved to stay associated with the BSA,” and “If the BSA is to move into the 21st Century, it might have to without the LDS Church” are not consistent with each other. If you really want “Mormons and anyone else,” you have to be willing to accept them on their terms, not your own.
You would do better to advocate an “every chartered partner should make its own membership decisions for its own units” policy than to single out the LDS Church as a scapegoat. Singling out Mormons and ignoring others who advocate for traditional marriage is selective moral outrage. Please be consistent. That’s all I have to say.
Ryan Mecham
I’m in the only LDS Troop in my district (definitely in the minority). The Mormons do not have the monopoly on poorly run programs. We have our own unique set of issues to work with as do the many other organizations that try to implement a Scout program.
In this 100th celebration year we are seeing a tremendous decline in the popularity (as measured by enrollment) of Scouting. Many, including me, would like to see the trends reversed. I’m sure this trend disturbs a lot of people and they are seeking for the root causes.
However, it appears to me that many (maybe you) are seeking a scapegoat for this trend. Because of the proportion of LDS Scouts it is an easy target. Due to this proportion it is easy to find the best of Scouting and the worst of Scouting and to generalize to the whole.
As an LDS Scouter I don’t have any problem with BSA adopting similar solutions to Canada Scouts. But you’re crazy if you believe letting girls and gays in and taking God out of the BSA will boost participation back to the 1970′s level. Even if the LDS Church doesn’t leave, other groups might. But above that the influx will be below the level of noise in the data.
ABC, NBC, and CBS once commanded the home entertainment market. BSA once commanded the youth (boy) market. Face it, there is more competition in that market and for those dollars. Scouting is too difficult for some boys (camping in freezing weather anyone???). It is too expensize for some. It is boring for others. On and on and on…
The LDS Church, as many other fine organizations, finds value in partnering with BSA and is willing to pay for the program. The LDS Church is not the cause or the barrier to the success of Scouting. In fact, I think a very strong argument can be made that without the support (and money) from the LDS, BSA would have become a footnote long ago (as it is in many other countries).
So keep on searching for your scapegoat. Baseball season is coming up, maybe you can look there.
“If the BSA is to move into the 21st Century, it might have to without the LDS Church” does not equal “kick out the Mormons”. It is recognizing that if the BSA gives chartered partners the freedom to allow gay Scoutmasters, the LDS Church may leave.
I can agree that Scouting is being held hostage, the question at hand is by whom? I would submit that it is not Scouting’s partner of 97 years who has a knife at the throat of Scouting. Rather, from my vantage point it is the social engineers who would force Scouting down a new and potentially treacherous path that are really holding the movement hostage. Is there more inherent risk of Scouting not making it another 100 years by altering its policies and standards, or staying the tried and true path? I would submit that there is much less risk with the latter. BSA “moved into the 21st Century” already 10 years ago in case you did not notice. Thankfully, they are still standing on the same rock solid, time honored foundation that was created 100 years ago.
Some of what you shared about problems inherent to LDS BSA units may be true. However, this whole diatribe looks like nothing more than a feeble attempt to malign Scouting and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, by one who is embittered because his own lifestyle choices no longer mesh with the values of an organization he cares about deeply. It is no different in Scouting for the Athiest than it is for the Gay. Folks are free to not agree. I’m sure you are a great man, and your passion for Scouting is very apparent. God bless you brother.
Respectfully, being gay is not a ‘lifestyle choice’ it is a life, period. Many believe it starts at birth, that a straight person can no more choose to be gay than a gay person can choose to be straight. Personally, I believe that God made different types of people to serve different purposes in life and that most people fall somewhere on a scale between gay and straight.
I see the point being that is being made in this thread as one that is a problem in society and in fact in human nature. That being “They who hold the purse strings are in control”. If that is the case that the LDS church are such major financial contributors to the scouting program then they are in a position to greatly influence or in-fact control those who are dependent on the money. I have made and met so many LDS friends that I can’t even begin to count. I have even been thought to be LDS myself which I take as a compliment although I surely am not.
The problem is that as with any large organization, (incl. scouting, LDS Church, Governments, large corporations, etc.) the entity can become considered adverse or negative even though the individual members of an organization are positive and good. When an organization moves into the position of ‘attempting to influence through power’ it moves quickly into a position of discourse rather than good. We have all learned this as a basic leadership tenet. Power, when used for good is a great tool. The abuse of power when used to oppress others is evil.
No I am not calling the LDS Church or scouting or any other group inherently evil. I am talking about the misuse of power. I think that scouting would be better off weaning themselves off of the excessive (real or perceived) dependence on organizational finances no matter who that organization is. I believe that if the finances were to come from more grass roots type of sources that scouting could be again free to be an organization of service to all.
As to the altering of ‘scouting’s policies’ they have already been altered. We now accept women as scouters in-fact as scoutmasters. When is the last time that a scout was taught stalking and tracking, semaphore, and a myriad of other ‘talents’ that society has no longer deemed valuable. As society changes so does scouting. The basic philosophies of Lord Baden Powell have held fast, dignity, respect, leadership, civil responsibility and brotherhood. Just because scouting may have reached another junction at which the path may change does not mean that scouting is being maligned, social engineered or mis-directed.
Mike said:
“Respectfully, being gay is not a ‘lifestyle choice’ it is a life, period. Many believe it starts at birth, that a straight person can no more choose to be gay than a gay person can choose to be straight”
Reply: While many people may believe that, there is no proof. Many people also believe it is a choice one makes, though there certainly may be some biological factors that sway some people more that direction than others. Some people have more of a biological tendency to become alcoholics than others too. They can choose not to drink, and avoid all of the negative consequences that would come about if they chose otherwise.
Mike said:
“Personally, I believe that God made different types of people to serve different purposes in life and that most people fall somewhere on a scale between gay and straight.”
Reply: It seems like your position is very closely aligned with mine. I agree, and thus it is a choice.
Mike said:
“The LDS church are such major financial contributors to the scouting program then they are in a position to greatly influence or in-fact control those who are dependent on the money.”
Reply: Is it “the Church” as a big entity who just randomly donates all of this money you speak of, or is it individual members of the Church; who because of their belief in the timeless values of Scouting, sacrifice to contribute to local councils’ FOS campaigns? I can tell you it is the latter. If the pro-gay Scouting movement is so large, then perhaps all of these folks should step up their FOS contributions as a good first step towards change. I submit that it is a very small minority within the movement who really want that type of change, and if their FOS contributions were to increase a hundred fold or a thousand fold, that would not be enough to sway BSA.
Mike said:
“When an organization moves into the position of attempting to influence through power’ it moves quickly into a position of discourse rather than good”.
That is the way many people feel about 2-3% of the nation’s population trying to shove the gay agenda down the country’s throat, and worse yet down the throats of private organizations. What folks choose to do in the privacy of their own lives is OK by me. The “influence through power” by the gay movement on the country in general, and on Scouting in particular is insidious.
Mike said:
“I think that scouting would be better off weaning themselves off of the excessive (real or perceived) dependence on organizational finances no matter who that organization is. I believe that if the finances were to come from more grass roots type of sources that scouting could be again free to be an organization of service to all.”
Reply:
I am no fan of the money hungy bureacracy of professional Scouting either. I too wish Scouting was not so money driven. While you apparently believe that if money were not an issue for BSA that gays suddenly would be allowed in the organizaton, I still doubt it. Since Scouting is never going to let go of the money that flows in, we will probably never get to find out.
Mike said:
“As society changes so does scouting”
Reply:
While some activities based on interests, technology, and so forth have evolved in Scouting, morally Scouting has NOT changed. Nor is Scouting likely to change. I leave you with this thought and question. Instead of ramrodding the gay agenda into an organization who clearly is not interested in going there, why don’t all of the gay, and gay supporting Scouters just form an organization like the Gay Scouts of America? Nobody is stopping anyone from that. If the movement is so popular, and so vitally needed for the gay community, then someone should fill the void by forming an organization to meet the needs. I personally believe that such an organization could not even get off the ground, and if it did gain any momentum, it would quickly lose the morality and values of traditional Scouting.
Gary
Gary Said:
While many people may believe that (being gay is biological), there is no proof. Many people also believe it is a choice one makes, though there certainly may be some biological factors that sway some people more that direction than others. Some people have more of a biological tendency to become alcoholics than others too. They can choose not to drink, and avoid all of the negative consequences that would come about if they chose otherwise. (Parenthesis are from Young Money)
The idea that there is no “proof” that being gay is biological is like arguing there is no actual causal relation between smoking and cancer, or that because it is snowing on the east coast global warming must be wrong. There is clearly a choice element to acting on impulses, but it is not like alcoholism. Alcoholism is a disease that has physical repercussions: Liver problems, stomach ulcers and cancer. Being gay does not destroy your body.
Now, I know you are thinking, what about the soul? That is being destroyed through immoral acts. That may be what you think, but the same reason you can have that view is the same reason you cannot force me to agree. Morality of others actions is not to be judged by me nor Ross nor you. For any of us to dictate to others what is “good” and what is “bad” is antithetical to not only Anglo-American social values, but contrary to the judeo-christian ethics you use to form the basis of your moral opposition to homosexuals. The freedom to choose ones lifestyle is not only a fundamental value of America, it is a basic tenet of the values you are trying to assert.
That being said, none of us responding on this thread can set BSA policy and the BSA is free to set their standards for members where they want. I cannot say LGBT persons are moral and should be allowed into the BSA with any more certainty or weight than you can say they are immoral and should be excluded. Those conclusions are both based on our code of ethics, regardless of how they are formed. However, what we can do, and I think what Ross has tried to put in motion with these blog entries is to try and show the absurdity of the decision that has been made by the BSA and to advocate for the inclusion of wonderful people with a great capacity for caring and teaching in a group that has meant a lot to Ross and myself in our lives.
Gary Said:
That is the way many people feel about 2-3% of the nation’s population trying to shove the gay agenda down the country’s throat, and worse yet down the throats of private organizations.
I do not know where you are getting your statistics, but there is a larger GLBT community than 2-3%. Numbers aside, Any group, if it is 10 people or 10 million people, deserves fair treatment before the law and in society.
The LGBT community is not shoving anything down people’s throat. I would agree the actions they have taken are aggressive, but that is because the actions need to be very public because of the nature of the prejudices against them. Acting publicly is not the same as shoving their agenda down your throat. Public demonstrations are the bed rock that have spurred changes in this country, and I would argue for the better. If you are not interested in their agenda, then change the channel or spend some time reading a book.
But before you do that, please, please, please, listen to their stories. Listen to the hurdles they have overcome and the challenges still facing them. Listen to the injustices and prejudices they encounter on a daily basis. Listen to the threats of violence and derogatory names they are called. Imagine you had to go through those struggles daily regardless of if you were born that way or made a decision. No one should face what the LGBT community does even if they made a decision. Wouldn’t you want to change those attitudes? I don’t care if you change your mind. All I can hope for is that you listen to their story before coming to a position.
While it would be stimulating to address the many inaccuracies put forth in this blog, it is my understanding that the topic of this blog is “The BSA’s Mormon Problem”. There is a separate blog for discussion focused on “The BSA’s Gay Problem”.
My faith teaches that God uses many channels to bring people to reverence. That, I am unjustified in attempting to state that a particular position of faith is right and all others are wrong. My faith teaches dignity, respect and acceptance of all of God’s children which is what I aspire to. The difference between my faith and many others is that there is no ‘National Influence’ placed on congregations or members to support this cause or shun that cause in the intent of the ‘position of the church’.
You will notice in my posts that I freely speak of my support of my LDS brothers just as I do of all of my scouting brothers without respect to faith or social standing. I do however strongly oppose the reckless wielding of power and influence to alter the outcome of a group intent on serving varying types of people and communities.
It is easy for a large organized group to deny the rights of others be they gay or atheists through financial, electoral or other means. It is not easy for a minority to stand up for their rights against such a large wave of opposition. They must be vocal, they must be recognized, they must be counted as a presence within a society or an organization. We as a society have been down this road so many times that it is unbelievable. Yet, the same fearful objections, maligned positions and self-serving oppressive tactics are thrown up in the way of progress each and every time.
The BSA is not a Christian organization. It is not a Jewish organization. It is not an Islamic organization. It is a national civic organization granted a charter by our National Congress. BSA is meant to serve the community at large. In order to do that and in order to move forward we must move toward a position of inclusiveness rather than one of exclusiveness.
As a former equal opportunity officer for my organization in the US Army, I know the benefit of learning and living inclusively. There are and have been countless examples of large powerful organizations wielding improper influence and we all know the debacles that come out of that type of existence. I do not enjoy seeing my scouting program suffer those same lessons.
I will never take or support the position that one (or some) speaking out against injustice or intolerance should not be heard, should not be redressed, should not be recognized.
Scouting is done best at the community level serving the youth of those communities locally in my opinion.
Young Money,
I am not in favor of forcing anyone to do anything, and believe all people should be treated with dignity and respect.
Mike,
It is not me, but rather the author who made this article about homosexuality, notwithstanding that he wrote a second article entitled The BSA’s Gay Problem. While the balance of the post is cloaked in supposed concerns over LDS chartered BSA unit’s use of the program, the underlying issue as to why he is opposed to the Church’s involvement in BSA is made very apparent in this statement:
“The more severe problem is the Mormon influence on National BSA policies. Particularly on the issue of permitting gays to be members”.
Gary –
I’m not opposed to the LDS Church’s involvement in Scouting, I’m simply opposed to the way in which their influence is hampering the rest of the program.
Also Gary, what is this gay agenda you speak of? Apparently my copy didn’t come in the mail.
I agree- it appears the LDS decision to use Scouting for the Aaronic Priesthood and meet certain age limits sets up an unrealistic schedule that either dumbs down the BSA program,
which makes it obvious that theres “real” Eagles, and “paper” Eagles.
That does a LOT of damage both to BSA and to LDS, to be frank, but more important, it does a great deal of damage to the Scouts involved, for kids these days are very hip to marketing and whats real and whats not.
Pingback: Happy 100th BSA. You Act Like It Too. « The Life of a Little Hippie
I’m sure that the author is aware that, from the beginning, BSA has given the Chartered Organizations the latitude to execute the Scouting program in a way that fits the needs of the boys and in a way that occommodates the situation and beliefs of the Chartered Organization. The early Scout leaders intended the program to be about THE BOYS. That has been what has made the BSA program adaptable to such a large number of diverse groups and organizations, including Mormons, Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, Masons and on and on. Ross describes the LDS church method inflammatorily as “bastardizing” the program, when adapting the BSA program to the Chartered Organization’s program is done by many organizations, especiallly religious organizations, and is core to BSA’s tenets.
I think it is clear to everyone what Ross’ real agenda is. He doesn’t like that the church has been probably the most vocal in threatening to pull out of BSA if they allow (force) the boys to be exposed to homosexual leaders. He mentions that a couple of times and equates allowing gay leaders to BSA being “socially evolved” and “exposing (the boys) to different points of view.” And he wraps the whole argument up with the tidy little bow of money. That has to be insulting and dissappointing to the BSA top leaders who strive to keep the program focused on boys of all different beliefs and cultures and needs, while keeping them safe.
I am proud of the BSA for the strides that they have made in evolving the program over the years while still staying true to the early values, methods and aims. I am also very proud of all the Chartered Organizations who stand up for their beliefs, values and morals and resist the pressure to be influenced by the pressure from people and groups who have forgotten The Boys and are just pushing their political and other agendas.
Well I dont think its so much a “Mormon Influence” problem with the BSA so much as it is the Jewish influence; http://www.jewishscouting.org/historyofthecommittee.asp
http://www.jewishscouting.org/historyofthecommittee.asp
Pingback: Glenn Beck Part 1: High on a Mountain Top… « Religion for Mormons and other Idiots